[RealityWall]

Are you claiming that 'millions of Jews' died, or are you saying the quotation is someone else's, and you don't know?

I think they most certainly did, but the original statement that you asked about was not mine, but Mark Weber's. Such is why I used the forum's quote function for his statements, and placed a link to the article where he mentioned them. See here:
http://www.ihr.org/weber_revisionism_jan09.html

[rerevisionist]

[1] Why do you think they did, in view of the fact there is no evidence for this?

[2] Have you inspected the alleged document yourself?

[3] How fluent are you in German?

[4] Let me test you on interpersonal communication. How many documents do you think were generated between 1939 and 1945 in German?

[Sorensen731]

Goebbels diary was HAND-WRITTEN, until 1941, this part in dispute is written by TYPEWRITER.

So then no typed document, protocol, or diary is authentic?

You are stupid and manipulative.

A diary that starts hand-written doesn't suddenly change to typewriter. If it does, there is something there. And if we know the lot of fakes on the subject, we should be careful, when you are, you see contradictions between this alleged "entries" of "Goebbels" diary (mistranslated to add more to the injury).

Get real. Or then, would you accept the handwritten notes in Himmler's Dienstkalender regarding the extermination of Jews?

Yeah, paper holds everything, you can print whatever you want, typewrite whatever you want. Facts on the ground are what you can not fake. If the diaries you can't stop talking about were real... where is the evidence of what they talk about? All you claim to have is some disputed diaries. Please, go to any trial with that, a disputed diary, by a disputed person. Check how Max Weber is hated by everybody and is a thief and an infiltrator who stole hundred of thousands and destroyed the Institute of Historical Review.

Mark Weber (as opposed to the famous sociologist you refer to-do your homework) simply researched the material more

Hahaha, compare your opinion with the facts I posted before, Max Weber is an infiltrator, who has destroyed the IHR and stole it's money. He didn't research anything, he hasn't published anything at all! No books, no essays, he even cancelled all the IHR published! You are an ignorant or a liar, or both.

and studied on the new developments since his 1988 statement. Do keep in mind that Irving discovered the full set of glass plates recording Goebbels' entries in a Soviet archive in 1992

"Soviet", that should be enough. Anybody who knows about the Nuremberg "trials" or about the Soviet workings should distrust immediately any Soviet "archive".
The people who mastered faking photography, eliminating persons of history completely, masters of propaganda... And of course this new "continuation" of Goebbels diary was different, not hand-written but typewrite... by whom? That's the question.

(after Weber's statement),

Weber has no credibility, none. His supporters have been demanding his resignation for years, for stealing, not working and betraying their work.

The thoughts of those who are more up to date on the research, and even current revisionist historiography, are sought.

What "research"? Research is on the ground, it's physical, it's chemical research, not wasted time on worthless faked paper printed by the OSS, that they can fake, the facts on the ground on the camps can't.

[RealityWall]

A diary that starts hand-written doesn't suddenly change to typewriter. If it does, there is something there. And if we know the lot of fakes on the subject, we should be careful, when you are, you see contradictions between this alleged "entries" of "Goebbels" diary (mistranslated to add more to the injury).

How do we know that "there is something there"? What evidence can you offer about a forgery process? Absolutely none! Indeed, the revisionist who was the first to examine the document and had them tested for their authenticity confirmed their originality. That means a lot more than the snide remarks and baseless accusations that you have peddled.

Check how Max Weber is hated by everybody and is a thief and an infiltrator who stole hundred of thousands and destroyed the Institute of Historical Review.
(...)
Hahaha, compare your opinion with the facts I posted before, Max Weber is an infiltrator, who has destroyed the IHR and stole it's money. He didn't research anything, he hasn't published anything at all! No books, no essays, he even cancelled all the IHR published! You are an ignorant or a liar, or both.
(...)
Weber has no credibility, none. His supporters have been demanding his resignation for years, for stealing, not working and betraying their work.

Max Weber? Please do your homework for the first time. Max Weber is a brilliant sociologist, not to be confused with MARK Weber, former director of the IHR. It also is a total fabrication to say that he never wrote any essays, as he was one of the most prolific writers for the journal, writing decent essays on Buchenwald and Nuremberg among hundreds of others. See here:
http://vho.org/search/d/search.php?db=d ... ew+Records

As Weber made clear to private individuals, 'revisionism' wasn't selling to the public so the cancellation of the Journal of Historical Review (which he edited) was primarily a business decision. This is supported by the continual pleas for money from the likes of Bradley Smith, Barnes Review, Denierbud, etc. 'Revisionism' just doesn't have the support to keep itself alive financially. Also, it is funny that the people who charge 'infiltrator' (such as Faurisson) were the people who Weber gave the biggest voice to. Shows you how cutthroat and heartless deniers are to one another if they disagree with the party line.

Anyway, I am not one to fall in line with "everyone hates him, so I should hate him too" type arguments. Another example where you are not open minded.

"Soviet", that should be enough. Anybody who knows about the Nuremberg "trials" or about the Soviet workings should distrust immediately any Soviet "archive".
The people who mastered faking photography, eliminating persons of history completely, masters of propaganda... And of course this new "continuation" of Goebbels diary was different, not hand-written but typewrite... by whom? That's the question.

And yet you can offer NO proof that the Soviets forged any part of the diaries!

Also, while you say a Soviet source is worthless, more worthwhile revisionists have visited the archives in Moscow (in addition to former communist Poland) to find evidence for their arguments. The clearest examples are Carlo Mattogno and Juergen Graf (who have surpassed Faurisson among revisionist scholars), both of whom regularly cite documents from the former Soviet archives. One should immediately inform the duo that anonymous internet poster Sorensen knows that Soviet archives are faked and that they should stay away!!

[RealityWall]

[1] Why do you think they did, in view of the fact there is no evidence for this?

[2] Have you inspected the alleged document yourself?

[3] How fluent are you in German?

[4] Let me test you on interpersonal communication. How many documents do you think were generated between 1939 and 1945 in German?

1) There is plenty of evidence for the murder of millions of Jews. Simply saying that there is 'no evidence' does not discard the hundreds of documents, thousands of testimonies (perpetrators, victims, and bystanders), and reports.

2) No, but I don't see the need. I don't see the reason for Irving (who at the time of the 1992 discovery was a hardcore revisionist) to have been wrong with his confirmation of the diaries authenticity, especially as he had it forensically examined.

3) Is this related to a supposed 'translation issue'? Even revisionists have translated the document essentially the same as I quoted (including Weber). And I am proficient in German, yes.

4) Fail to see your point.

[Sorensen731]

How do we know that "there is something there"?

This message is not for you, professional hired mercenary/troll, it's for the forum and the readers.

Because there is a WAR, a PROPAGANDA WAR? The same in WW1... because there were whole departments whose only job was to create propaganda?

All of them, British, American and Soviet had massive propaganda and psychological campaigns.

You can start here;

http://books.google.com/books?id=4WMkABeRQDkC&pg=PA28&lpg=PA28&dq=falsehood+in+war+time

This is the situation, you offered proof of a perfectly undisputed nicely fit document, with it's good chain of custody and no contradictions, and backed by other sources, people, secretaries, physical facts on the ground. Internet Banking used phones, sms, for additional security and verification, you don't do the same, offer another verification, secretaries, physical proof, you don't want to, and you can't, you are using a pysop operation, to push a disputed document and focus all the attention there, in a meaningless faked diary instead of the dozens of deadly proof of no holocaust, like population statistics, red cross reports, nonexistence of chambers, nonexistence of chemical residues, failure of hundreds of autopsies to show death by gas and instead confirming epidemics... This is the game you are playing, go con someone else.

What evidence can you offer about a forgery process?

If you had physical control of all the country, the police headquarters, the ministries, the archives... you could not just "fake", but issue newly authentic documents, newly passports, newly orders, signed with the stamp you have in every single of their buildings, they wouldn't be fake, they would be real. This is just to show the situation of the documents that could appear once the Soviet took control of the country and all that existed in it.

It's not on the defense to show the technical process, time and meteorology of the day the document was faked, but on the accusation to show it has no contradictions, it follows the style of the alleged author, and it fits and is backed by witness and it leads to physical results on the field. You have none of this.

the revisionist who was the first to examine the document

I don't fucking care what they say, unlike you, I have my own mind and can reach my own conclusions, Superman himself could have "examined" and "certified" it. I don't care what other say, I care about the facts.

heartless deniers

Oh.. I'm mortally hurt...! A professional troll or a subsided Jew who lives of our taxes says I'm heartless... go ask for more money as niece of a survivor of the Holocaust, go tell the world how of 100 millions dead people, only the Jews demand payment as "survivors".

Also, while you say a Soviet source is worthless, more worthwhile revisionists have visited the archives in Moscow

Revisionist would love to go to zone zero, the camps, it would be free, no cost, Iran has offered to pay all the cost for an independent scientific analysis of the camps.
Tell your Jewish bosses to allow the independent research there and revisionist would go there instead of the less important few surviving disputed documents spread over the world.

(in addition to former communist Poland) to find evidence for their arguments.

Evidence is not in documents, it's in the fucking ground, your accusation is of 6 millions murdered in specific places that haven't moved, the evidence is there, well.. should be there if the accusation were true.

One day, you will pay back and be tried for fraud and defamation against the German people. Your holo-tale is a fraud, a lie, and is being exposed as such.

[rerevisionist]

rerevisionist wrote:[1] Why do you think they did, in view of the fact there is no evidence for this?
[2] Have you inspected the alleged document yourself?
[3] How fluent are you in German?
[4] Let me test you on interpersonal communication. How many documents do you think were generated between 1939 and 1945 in German?

1) There is plenty of evidence for the murder of millions of Jews. Simply saying that there is 'no evidence' does not discard the hundreds of documents, thousands of testimonies (perpetrators, victims, and bystanders), and reports.

2) No, but I don't see the need. I don't see the reason for Irving (who at the time of the 1992 discovery was a hardcore revisionist) to have been wrong with his confirmation of the diaries authenticity, especially as he had it forensically examined.

3) Is this related to a supposed 'translation issue'? Even revisionists have translated the document essentially the same as I quoted (including Weber). And I am proficient in German, yes.

4) Fail to see your point.

[1] It's simply untrue to say there's plenty of evidence. If this were true, it would be produced - and normal processes of examination would be applied. Incidentally you dodge the issue of Jewish population numbers.

[2] There are plenty of discussions on this issue, for example in English
http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3793
and some in German
http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2669
It's nothing new.

[3] I was interested to see if you have any familiarity with the documents. Presumably not, in which case you're simply imitating others.

[4] I was hinting at the question of the sample space of documents. As long as there's money in it, people like you will continue to manufacture new pseudo-issues.

Note to people new to holocaust revisionism: your best approach imho is to try to find overview documents, which describe all the issues, but not in endless detail. And then home in on detail, if you feel inclined. Incidentally, a lot of material is online - for example, David Irving's Goebbels. Mastermind of the Third Reich is a free download,

[RealityWall]

I seem to have struck a nerve with Sorensen, judging by his rather irate and blathering response, not substantiated by ANY evidence mind you, in addition to resorting to rather foul language. He resorts to baseless speculation about Jewish bosses (I am not Jewish, nor have ever been paid by a Jew-instead, I am of German descent) and whatnot. Anyway, a brief recap of our discussion prior to Sorensen's meltdown:

1) Sorensen's first response to me relied entirely on Mark Weber's 1988 statement challenging the authenticity of Goebbels' diary entry. As I showed Weber came to change these beliefs in the two decades since, Sorensen let loose on Weber (who he repeatedly misidentifies as Max Weber) calling him an infiltrator and a failure, thus contradicting his earlier use of the same source!

Sorensen also made a few bogus remarks that Weber never wrote any articles on revisionism; this is a flat out lie, as anyone with access to Google can easily find out.

2) While David Irving personally accessed Goebbels' diaries, located in an archive in Moscow, he had it forensically tested to ensure its authenticity. That test, performed by Lancashire based Pilkington Technology, confirmed the originality of the diaries. Thus, any doubts as to the authenticity of the diary entires were disproven; this explains Weber's change of belief.

3) Sorensen demands forensic evidence for proof of killings. Such evidence would easily be discarded by him, no doubt based on no evidence, but can be found in the 1940s reports of Soviet and Polish investigative teams, as well as recent archaeological work performed on Belzec by Andrzej Kola and Sobibor by a team led by Yoram Haimi. For more information on these studies (which Sorensen will ignore, most certainly) please see the following links:
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... camps.html
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot. ... hardt.html

And so, Sorensen has lost any credibility he might have had prior to this discussion.

[Sorensen731]

I seem to have struck a nerve with Sorensen, judging by his rather irate and blathering response, not substantiated by ANY evidence

Isn't the evidence what we are talking here? Where is it? Don't talk about me or psychoanalyze me, analyze the facts.

He resorts to baseless speculation about Jewish bosses

Hahaha! "baseless speculation about Jewish bosses" Go lie someone else! Sure, Jewish don't rule! Hahaha!

I am not Jewish

Sure, we believe you, sure... Of course....

I am of German descent

Maybe, half German, a quarter German, doesn't change your Jewishness.

a brief recap of our discussion

Yes, a recap.

You defame a people and a government, without proof.
You naively act refusing to believe propaganda and psychological departments directed the information.
You bring as witness someone accused of stealing by his own people, his credibility is null.
You bring nothing else to substantiate your claim, therefore, you are defaming, committing perjury, lying and committing fraud.
You are continuing a British-Soviet War Propaganda campaign, using this time a man who has been exposed as a con artists, a fraud, a liar and an infiltrator, he has been caught. You have no case, in fact, you appear even weaker now.

1) Sorensen's first response to me relied entirely on Mark Weber's 1988 statement

Wait here, it doesn't rely entirely on squat. The 1988 was a fact your "just forgot" to mention, because it contradicts your position, you come here with the words of a man... that has contradicted himself before. That has to be told. You didn't. You hid that fact. I brought it. And that is just a little piece I brought, I told you before, this case is big, and has lots of points, you are concentrating on one, you can not prove anything with just a diary, you may use it to get the proof it points to... please do, we are waiting, have been waiting for a century since your people started printing the 6 Million tale in WW 1... Are you going to talk about it? Or does it damage the credibility of your case? What respect can they have after lying with the same in WW2? Doesn't it damaged them as witness? Still, you could offer physical proof, go on, show it, find it. Offer it to us. Talk about the camps, talk about the statistics, talk about the alleged gas, talk about it.

As I showed Weber came to change these beliefs in the two decades since,

Since he destroyed the IHR, stole it's money and show his true face, losing his credibility with it.

Sorensen let loose on Weber (who he repeatedly misidentifies as Max Weber) calling him an infiltrator and a failure, thus contradicting his earlier use of the same source!

He contradicts himself, he lost credibility by saying one thing and the opposite, you bring him here, he is your case, your witness, which failed. Bring something better next time.

Sorensen also made a few bogus remarks that Weber never wrote any articles on revisionism; this is a flat out lie, as anyone with access to Google can easily find out.

Your link is to mp3, to audio, and no to articles, in fact, the article you brought here of him states that we shouldn't even talk about revisionism! That it's lost! That's even worse than not writing, he is betraying his job and his supporters!

And he didn't just refuse to write, he shut down the magazines, the conferences, etc...

[RealityWall]

[1] It's simply untrue to say there's plenty of evidence. If this were true, it would be produced - and normal processes of examination would be applied. Incidentally you dodge the issue of Jewish population numbers.

Well, any account of the Holocaust has ample evidence in it, as even a cursory glance of Raul Hilberg's three volume tome would demonstrate. What subject do you wish to have evidence regarding? One of the camps? The mass shootings in the occupied Soviet territories? The gas vans? It is hard to discuss the Holocaust as a whole, so perhaps we should sift through things with a little more concentration. Which topic would you like to go over?

I'm not sure what you mean about the 'issue' of Jewish population numbers. Can you demonstrate equivalent numbers of Jews in pre-war Europe to be located in the continent afterwards?

As Weber says in his quote, there were millions in European countries before the war, and they weren't there after the war. We know that millions were sent to the camps of Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno, and Auschwitz-Birkenau. It is really pretty simple.

[2] There are plenty of discussions on this issue, for example in English
http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3793
and some in German
http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2669
It's nothing new.

What is "nothing new"? And citing a discussion from the CODOH revisionist forum, which censors anti-revisionists, is hardly substantial evidence. More serious treatments of the Goebbels diaries by revisionists can be found here in their journal publications:
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... e_jews.php
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... jews_2.php

It is also interesting that, although they have commented on the diary entry sporadically (and take it as authentic), the top revisionist 'scholars' of Graf and Mattogno often ignore the entries in their works. It is also referenced in the new edition of Germar Rudolf's Lectures on the Holocaust.

[3] I was interested to see if you have any familiarity with the documents. Presumably not, in which case you're simply imitating others.

"Imitating others"? As the document has been widely discussed, its authenticity forensically verified, translated and quoted by various authors (revisionists and non revisionists alike), why need I visit Moscow to verify that their transcription is accurate? Would it be nice? Sure, but it is not one of my top priorities.

[4] I was hinting at the question of the sample space of documents. As long as there's money in it, people like you will continue to manufacture new pseudo-issues.

A rather irrelevant digression then.

Note to people new to holocaust revisionism: your best approach imho is to try to find overview documents, which describe all the issues, but not in endless detail. And then home in on detail, if you feel inclined. Incidentally, a lot of material is online - for example, David Irving's Goebbels. Mastermind of the Third Reich is a free download,

[/quote]

So you cite the person that verified the authenticity of the Goebbels diaries, and believes that millions of Jews were murdered in the above listed camps. Interesting. Sorensen might start calling you a Jew, a paid infiltrator, and other specious things next.

[Sorensen731]

Well, any account of the Holocaust has ample evidence in it,

Hahahaha!

It has ample POCKETS OF MONEY to spread it, but evidence, none. No, Spielberg movies doesn't count as evidence.

as even a cursory glance of Raul Hilberg's three volume tome would demonstrate. What subject do you wish to have evidence regarding? One of the camps? The mass shootings in the occupied Soviet territories? The gas vans?

Hahaha! The "vans" ? Really? That lie was of Saddam WMD, so, the Germans had "vans" too?

We know it, it's a lie, the Pyschological Warfare Unit, made 100% of Jews developed it. Your lies have fallen one after the other.

For God sake, you have been repeating the 6 millions three times!

In 1906, the Russians had plans to kill 6 millions Jews.
In WW1, the Germans the same
And in WW2, again! The first two times were not believed, this time you spent more money and repeated it more. Still, it's a lie.

You are being exposed, all over the Internet, more people are realizing the fraud of the holo-hoax. Your damage-control, the blog you link is just a link to books that link to reports and pages... worthless... Point to the Red Cross 1946 Report, not under German control, but under allied, still, it says; 300.000 died in camps, half of them jews, and because of general, country-wide lack of food, illness and allied bombardment.

It is hard to discuss the Holocaust as a whole,

Of course, you are being exposed all the time.
Faking events is hard when you are going to be examined closely.

Can you demonstrate equivalent numbers of Jews in pre-war Europe to be located in the continent afterwards?

Depending on the source you use, from 15 million before to 18 million later, other sources just 14 million, the same, before and after. Even their own statistics show it's a lie.

As Weber says in his quote, there were millions in European countries before the war, and they weren't there after the war.

Yeah, they were given free homes in invaded Palestine, free roads, free technology and free money as "survivors".
Jews all over the world were given free mansions in Germany, their owners kicked out to the streets.
After the War, Jews took absolute control of all governments, many Jews were needed, and to hide the Jewish control, they were asked to change their names to not appear foreigners.
Still, even so as the numbers in the last paragraph show, they lie, Red Cross calculated the number in 150.000 and for malnutrition, illness and allied bombing. And many of this Jews were criminals, camps were prisons. The rest were detained only after Judea declared the War and as foreigners to be kicked out of the country, by the way, no country accepted them, not the US, they refuse to have the Jews.

We know that millions were sent to the camps of Treblinka, Sobibor, Belzec, Chelmno, and Auschwitz-Birkenau. It is really pretty simple.

Lies, millions... like the 4 millions killed in Auschiwitz that later was changed to a million, still even after lowering the 6 million in half, the result still is 6!

As the document has been widely discussed,

What "widely discussed"? Talking about the holocaust is a crime in half Europe. Change the Laws or support free speech and free research. Then, only then can you come here talking about "widely discussed" issues.

Interesting. Sorensen might start calling you a Jew, a paid infiltrator, and other specious things next.

I'm calling you a Jew, a known liar who is aware of the fraud you are defending, you should be in front of the Justice system for defamation and fraud, you and all your people, your crimes are being exposed. Your century of defamation against the innocent German people will be exposed, you are liars, fraudsters, criminals, responsible of genocide and ethnic cleansing, of cultural destruction. You shall face justice, you and all those who spread the fraud. Continue wasting time, the lies are being exposed meanwhile every day more people are realizing it.

[FirstClassSkeptic]

I used to believe the six million figure. Then I bought this old 1933 almanac, years ago, and it had the population of Europe, and how many jews in each nation. I added them up. It doesn't come near to six million. unless you got all the way to the Ural Mountains.

There was only 15 million jews in the world then.

There's an upset now about the train companies in France that hauled jews to the Camps. The figure is like 60,000 jews. Probably a similar figure for the other European nations.